I got clarification from Peralte, the proposal for the 6th academy has been tabled.

Hmm, so if we move Mary Lin to Coan, the city now has 400 instead of 300 students attending a sub par school? How does that make fiscal sense? This is not all about money. Of course, the simple mind of a 6th grader may see it that way. To an educated, adult mind, we can understand that the intrinsic value of a quality education far outweighs any fiscal considerations The City of Atlanta owes all the children in this city a quality education even if it means closing the consistently under performing Coan and moving those children to a quality school.

Concerned Parent:

By adding the Mary Lin population to the the new Toomer population the enrollment at Coan would far exceed what you mentioned so you might want to run those numbers again. Also, since this is supposed to be a 10 year plan and the baby bubble is in these areas, it makes perfect sense to have some extra capacity at Coan to allow for this future growth. Your comment about the quality education is interesting. That's something that Coan family has been asking for years but neglected by APS. So step back a few years and you will see a Mary Lin in the position Coan is in now. Coan is on the cusp of becoming a great school and with the addition of Mary Lin it makes perfect sense that it will get there. Or are you saying you aren't interested in this quality of education for ALL and only for a select few neighborhoods?

I attended the Coan hearing last night and they kicked off the meeting by telling everyone that this was not the plan by APSs but a suggestion by the superintendent yet at todays Grady meeting the exact opposite was told. At the Grady meeting they said the option is still on the table and has not been declared dead. Brockman is clearly talking out of both sides of her mouth and lives in the Mary Lin community that this debate is all about. She has aligned herself with the neighborhood she lives in.

Hey, Earl: my colleague, Jaclyn Hirsch, the Virginia-Highland Patch editor was at the Grady meeting and Bockman confirmed to her again that the annex for Coan dead. Here's her story: http://patch.com/A-rFh9

We fight for Grady because we are in the cluster now. If Lin would like to join us in making APS's dream of investing in Jackson I say bring it. If you want us to believe in their dream then you must as well. So come on Lin, come join us in the plan for Jackson.

As a Coan parent I would rather get up early and drive 5 miles out of my community than to have my child go to school with students that have parents that are so closed minded and afraid of change. We don't bite at Coan. And if Toomer/East Lake was kicked out of the Grady cluster Lin should have been too. They are the same distance from JACKSON as the other elementary schools it just makes COMMON sense.
t

Ah, I understand now. Since you DO NOT have a CHILD in this battle, you do not understand what it is like to be a parent in this fight. Got it. If you had a child at Coan or any other school, you would understand that our children are not social experiments. That as parents, we will do anything to make sure we get the best for our children. That the Coan children have been wronged by their teachers and staff and deserve more - way more. But the solution is not to bring over other children and wrong them too.. How will 75 ML children fix a broken school? The fact that you do not have children wrapped up in this redsitricitng quagmire explains it all and makes your arguments even less worthy of reading Mr. Wilkinson. Until your child is offered up as a solution, do not even attempt to speak for me or any other parent in this fight.

Concerned Parent,

Correct, I do not have a child but I understand the feeling that a parent has. I am still human. This is not some so called social experiment. This is a logical solution to a district wide problem. APS and our school board are faced with an issue of overcrowding and underutilization and sadly the pain needs to be shared by all. They can not and should not pander to any one community nor to one class of people. They also can't spend our hard earned tax dollars on building when using existing facilities and fixing the education problem should be the answers sought.

I respect your position as a parent. I sympathize with your position as a parent. However, they need to address a larger problem then what is best for a few kids and what's best for the entire system.

I do not undertand your reasoning? We are talking about 12 year olds here. Actually, for over half of the ML children, Inman is closer than Coan. I would love to see that NYT article that you mention.

^5

One: There are many studies showing that all students benefit, at a lower price, when schools are economically integrated, but not a single study shows students previously isolated in an affluent school achieved less.

Two: The real world is economically diverse. The earlier children learn that all people are equal, and the world is full of people from different backgrounds, the better equipped those children will be for success in the future.

Three: Barack Obama didn't go to affluent elementary, middle or high schools. Paris Hilton, Brandon Davis and John Hinkley did.

Thanks, will look at these articles. Just so you know, the 'racially diverse argument' for moving ML does not stand since Inman is actually very racially and socially diverse - 51% black, 42% white. Also, the fact that you can give me three people that went to rich schools and were unsuccessful and one person who went to a disadvantaged school does not make your argument. See, if we go into the prisons, and look at where that population went to school, I think you would find a majority were from under performing schools. I think we should all agree to disagree on this one!! I am about tapped out at discussing this.

Reply to @Sydnney Barker: I notice that Mr. Obama's childrent are not in public school now. Why do you think THAT is?

Half of the ML kids live closer to Inman than to Coan. Your busing argument is a wash.

First, where anyone is presently zoned would not be relevant in a lawsuit. The plans that were presented by the demographers, versus the plans presented by APS would be informative. Even if the Coan 6th grade academy idea is dropped, since it was proposed by APS, it would be prime evidence about how APS was thinking. Given the obviousness of moving ML to Coan to help with the overcrowding at Inman, APS has really created a windfall for lawyers. Anything short of bringing ML to Coan or King at this point and we will be wasting money on separate but equal lawsuits. Again, there are groups who have been waiting for this type of evidence so they can make this point.

Even if Coan were under capacity for now, the demographers noted that 30317 was experiencing the biggest baby boom in the city. Coan would be full within the ten years the plan is supposed to cover. Closing Coan makes sense only if you don't really consider ten years. Moving ML to Coan would mean in about six or seven years, both Inman and Coan would be full.

Why is Davis ignoring the demographers' numbers?

-"the demographers noted that 30317 was experiencing the biggest baby boom in the city": not true. Take a look at projected student numbers ("Atlanta Public Schools School Capacity/Utilization Study 2011").
-the demographers never had ML going to Coan- Davis did, as a 6th annex for their entire cluster.
-there may be, "groups who have been waiting for this type of evidence so they can make this point," but they better be able to pay tens of thousands for lawyers, because the chance of winning a suit on those points is negligible; no lawyers will take that case pro bono.
-"Even if Coan were under capacity for now"- Even if???? I've tried to show where data is, and I'm sure others have paid attention and clicked the links. You might try the same. And check the school projection #'s- Coan never gets to 40% capacity.

A quick message to Chris Murphy and the concerned parent.

So answer this one: how do you propose fixing the current and future overcrowding at Inman in a fiscally responsible way so APS and taxpayers money can be used directly for education for all the children and not the building or renovation of schools for some of the children? We would really love to hear.

Uh- why exactly should APS not build or renovate for some children? Is that like a general principle, or what?

The latest Davis plan was about as good as I think they can get. The cluster model is a major revision in plans, and should help us here in SE ATL. I understand you're upset at loosing Grady, but there's no way to keep you in. You also seem ignorant of the proposed changes across S. ATL. I suggest you take a look at them in detail to see how any one move affects all the others. Davis went about as far as he could in keeping 3 of your elementaries open, when he could easily justify 2. In other words, as bad as it is, it could have been worse.

Chris,

You asked why we shouldn't build. Well lets say we have to educate 50,000 children and we have limited funds. Let's call our organization APS. We realize that in our current structure we have overcrowding and underutilization in the same district. Would the logical choice for the entire district be to a) spend millions of precious dollars to build in order to serve a few or to b) re-balance the district, use existing facilities, and invest that money in the actual education of the children across the district? What would help the district more? Building or educating? Not sure about you, but I will take the investment in education please.

The cluster model could in fact work and could in fact keep us in. But let's play your game and say it won't. By using existing schools to still relieve the overcrowding some children would change clusters. That's called proper use of resources and shared pain. OK, I can buy that if the money is not wasted in option a and invested in option b.

@Murphy - there are at least two well funded foundations that have been waiting for an opportunity to bring a Brown versus the Board of Education type lawsuit against a large school district for affluent versus poor separate but equal education inequities. These are large, well funded national groups that have been waiting for the right facts for a winnable fight. Given how little sense keeping ML at Inman makes when there is middle school capacity that is closer to the school, Davis may have handed them a winnable fight on a silver platter.

@SB:"there are at least two well funded foundations that have been waiting for an opportunity to bring a Brown versus the Board of Education type lawsuit against a large school district for affluent versus poor separate but equal education inequities."

You haven't exactly been a font of credible information up to now, so I'll take the above with a bag of rock salt. Proving that not moving a 69% white school that normally graduates to a 49% white/41% black middle and on to a 26% white/65% black HS is somehow getting preferential treatment would be a very high bar to leap over.

That you think that by getting the 76 kids from Lin's present 5th grade next year somehow makes Coan viable makes no sense, at all: the sum of those students then would hardly break 40% of capacity at the school, from the present 34%. Is that "fiscally responsible?"

Another thing you and others don't seem to know is that SPLOST funds- from sales taxes- can only be used for capital costs (buildings, etc.) not operational costs. In other words, money for a building doesn't directly affect the money left for instruction, although it can certainly be argued that there is only so much money for public education, no matter where it comes from.

@Murphy - for the upteenth plus one time... This has nothing to do with race. You keep pointing out the racial balance of the schools, in the hopes that you can confuse people into thinking it's race. The organizations are looking to bring a lawsuit based on economic background. Affluent schools getting preferential treatment versus poorer areas being given the shaft. Do you really think that's the same as race based discrimination? It's not. These are two distinct topics. Race based discrimination has been a settled area of law. Economic disparity in education is a very hot topic right now, with several organizations looking to bring suits against large school districts. Nothing to do with race. Nothing.

It's obvious that you and a few others on this board are looking to confuse the issues, since you cannot defend the actual issues. Coan is closer to ML. (Note the person who said it wasn't didn't provide facts, just illusion.) It costs more to bus to a farther school than a closer school. Inman is overcrowded. Construction costs money that comes out of our pockets, whether it's taken from us one way or another.

Keeping the facts simple, it makes sense to use the resources available, send ML kids to Coan and keep Coan open.

Hokay, it has nothing to do with race, it's income/wealth. You have any reason to believe that the black/white numbers I posted vary in any significant way from the students low income/high income (or in Federal-ese, "free or reduced-price lunch" vs. no meal benefit)?

@Murphy - YES!!! The three neighborhoods north of Dekalb have an average income something like $40k more than the three below DeKalb. (I cannot look the numbers up right now, but they can be found at http://www.city-data.com, under Atlanta, look for the links to the neighborhoods.) The richest of the neighborhoods is Lake Claire and the poorest is Edgewood. South of DeKalb the richest is EL, which was around $42k, while LC, the lowest above DeKalb, is almost double that. The numbers are very clear, and have nothing to do with race.

"You have any reason to believe that the black/white numbers I posted vary in any significant way from the students low income/high income."

Let me see if I can phrase that better: you have any information stating that the black/white student numbers at the schools I cited vary from numbers you would get if the low income families/high income families were cited instead?

Another thing: that "city-data" site is so poor that it has the population of the city off by 130,000; apparently, they used the Census projections rather than the Census itself.

@Murphy - And there we have it: you think white people are affluent and African-Americans are poor.... Now I see why you weren't following the difference between economic diversity and racial diversity.

The average income above DeKalb includes ALL that live there, including all races. The average income below DeKalb includes ALL that live there, including all races. The numbers are very different. The neighborhoods are all racially diverse. The income disparities are pretty stark between above and below DeKalb.

Different topic. Different issue. Different numbers. One does not directly relate to the other.

But you have no proof, no data- you could try at least a little digging into Title I, barker. Given what I have seen of Title I data, I can tell you that numbers of 'free or reduced price lunch' students at any given APS school is very strongly correlated with the number of black students. But go ahead and keep arguing.

My data is from 2010/2011 school year. The data may have changed slightly but still racially diverse. Also, per my data, 42% of the children attending Inman are considered economically disadvantaged.

How obvious: you cannot provide counter-information on the affluent versus poor disparity, so you keep bringing up racial diversity. We get it. Inman is racially diverse. APS is still trying to provide one educational experience for affluent students and another for poor students, avoiding the obvious solution to keep these two groups separate. That has nothing to do with the racial statistics you keep trying to cite as proof.

For APS, 78% of the students are black, 74% are free and reduced price lunch ( a Federal measure that counts towards certain programs, like Title I). concerned parent, you're not using an official, or even good, data source.

@Barker: outside of busing the few affluent students in APS all over the city, I don't see how they can a meet the conditions you claim are needed. And that's kind of asking a lot of school kids. Maybe you ought to ask more of yourself, first.

@Murphy - While district-wide busing to achieve absolutely parity would be too disruptive, moving ML kids to the middle school that is closest to ML, which would take them from a farther school that is overcrowded, put them in a school that has space and save on transportation costs would seem to be a good start. Moving ML kids to Coan makes sense all around, except in the heads of ML parents and Mr. Davis. Their argument that students will be academically harmed if they were to move to a less afluent, currently under performing school is not only unsupported by any facts, it's contradicted by study after study.

Not only that, it sets up APS to have to use money earmarked for our kids' education and, instead, defend lawsuits that will likely be lost. Have you read the articles? There is ample evidence that economically based separate but equal is harmful, and several organizations waiting to sue a large urban school district to make this point.

Wouldn't it be easier, and better for the kids, for Davis to do the obvious and move ML kids to Coan?

ML is only marginally closer to Coan than Inman, as the crow flies; you have no proof that moving ML students would save transport costs, and it'd be just as easy to say that costs would go up (neither people nor buses can fly).

As far as any lawsuit- I'm no lawyer and I doubt you have any expertise in that area- I don't see any grounds that would win: most of the Coan kids are not currently zoned for Inman (http://www.atlantapublicschools.us/Page/25170; see Current School Enrollment by Neighborhood). Other low-income neighborhoods are being added to that cluster, the end result being that Inman/Grady gets more black/low income students than currently.

An additional fact that you and others choose to ignore is that even if Lin kids were zoned to Coan, that facility would still be at less than half full. Plus, it would leave the other middle school in the Jackson cluster, at 60%. Davis' plan made a choice of which facility to keep, and since most students are at King, that school was his preferred choice.

Money planned to be spent in the Grady cluster to deal with their capacity issues is not taking away from Jackson cluster schools: Jackson is slated to get a $39 million renovation this year, and Davis proposed changes to the King facility. DH Stanton ES will be getting major SPLOST funds, too.

The demographic re-zoning is being driven by population and capacity, and you in KW & EL don't have the former and way too much of the latter.

Have you ever step foot into Coan? Have you been to EVERY middle school in GA?
Until you have please keep your negative, non-productive, almost racist comments to yourself.

Parent@Coan: pay no attention to that internet troll, she (?) tries to stir up trouble on many forums.

ESL,

Since you are so sure about what should happen at Coan and insist that solving the Inman overcrowding shouldn't include using Coan let's see what your thinking is on fixing the overcrowding at Inman. Care to enlighten us? Let's see how cost effective it is and how much APS money it takes away from educating the children and not building new schools. The platform is all yours...

Earl,

You are so so sooooo right. They have no plan except more waste and to build build build. That's why when we ask them to answer the overcrowding issue and talk about using existing facilities they have nothing to say. Their only hope is to spend and build which is a complete waste of all taxpayers money when a simple move would fix the issue.

Thanks, KP. I'll check it out.

Chris, Chris, Chris...

Coan is currently a split feeder and has been since APS took our high school in 2007 and said we could go to Grady. Why on earth do you keep missing that. It's really easy. Again, they took our high school and split us. The neighborhood that was left out has been asking for 10 years to be sent to Grady but their requests have been ignored by our educators.

I don't miss your point- which is to keep Coan open, despite the costs.

You and others miss Davis', which is to fill King, improve the instruction, services, and facility, line up it's offerings with Jackson's (IB, etc.). Coan doesn't serve a need for the cluster in that plan. He posited using it as a temporary 6th grade academy, folks got their panties in a wad, so deferring now to all of you and your feelings, now it will get no students.

That Crim closed, and now Coan is up for closure, is purely a function of population. Doesn't take a Republican conspiracy, doesn't need spineless administrators to make that happen. It's a function of neighborhoods going through their own population boom, that pop. grows up and moves on, leaving excess capacity in the schools in its wake.

Chris,

Either you are on the APS payroll or you have been drinking way too much of the tainted kool-aid.

We totally understand the Davis plan. We also understand how for generations APS has made promises like this and never followed through on them for the people in this area. Perhaps you have missed that.

Davis's proposal is good in some respects and bad in others. What logical sense does it make to use kick the current children out of Coan and replace them, even if on a temporary basis for Inman kids? It's a temporary cure to an ongoing problem. We totally understand their ultimate plan is to build and spend when they should re-balance and reuse. What is logical about taking money that should be spent directly on a child's education (says teachers, books, etc) and spending it on building? That Chris makes not a bit of sense. If that's how it should be then I should scrap my car because it needs an oil change....must be better to buy a new one.

So you mention a function of population and I like that. So you have an every growing population that causes an overcrowding and you are faced with a choice to build or use a school that kids can walk to. What you propose is to build and ignore the existing school.

Your points are clearly skewed towards a flawed APS plan.

I agree with you Chris. I think Davis is one of the good things to come out of the cheating scandal. He is trying to be a good steward of our resources, but a lot of people just aren't seeing the big picture. I think he has a great vision for the Jackson cluster going forward, but it's hard for Kirkwood to let go of the Grady idea.

I smell a puppet...I think he has already made his decision (or his decision has already been made for him)...and that these meetings are appeasement...It's "odd" that ZERO of his plans call for "disruptions" north of Dekalb...if they did, I might be more inclined to think he truly was operating independently, and without any agenda. Just my opinion!

Kirkwood Parent,

No, we do not want to lose Coan. That is the fight. Of course are going to continue to fight for the high school we go to. That very well might change. The middle school should not. It should be used to its fullest extent.

Nick,

You are right. This plan was done and what we are seeing now is the dog and pony show at our local schools. We have asked not only our SRT3 rep but the APS members at the meetings what the plan is to reduce the overcrowding at Inman is if it doesn't include Coan and they say nothing. We then ask if the re-balance option was looked at and the answer is either no or nothing.

I stand corrected:
"APS must invest in the children of Hope-Hill Elementary by providing supplemental operating, instructional and administrative resources. Specifically, APS should maintain the present population at Hope-Hill but increase their funding to the equivalent of a fully enrolled school of 450 students. APS should not attempt to achieve this goal by shifting additional Title I students from Cook to Hope-Hill. "

However, their 'stand' against adding the Cook kids is because of the numbers that would end up in Inman/Grady; it is their way of making their plans for their cluster work, not as some racially discriminatory move. That should have been clear from their inclusion of Hope, and they are pushing to make sure Hope students don't arrive at Inman behinbd their peers academically. Sounds like a decent plan to me- except, they need to keep the Cook kids, IMO: the Jackson cluster received a split of low income populations down by the capitol, we can only handle so many.

At Saturday's EL Elementary meeting, I asked how much it would cost to operate all the buses that would be required for this plan to be implemented and was told that nobody knows those numbers. It's inconceivable that there are plans to bus kids five miles but no budget projections were done. I pushed the APS representatives and again asked for the information. We were promised that those numbers would be made available, but it's been crickets since.

If someone is trying so hard to not answer a question when they should know the answer, it's reasonable to think the answer isn't good. Until those numbers are made public, no plans for closing schools or busing students should be chosen. We cannot offer meaningful input if facts are hidden. The school board and school officials work for us, the taxpayers. They seem to have forgotten this.

You wouldn't get answers about middle school busing at a meeting that is legally required for an elementary that is closing. I wouldn't doubt, though, they will have some idea of what it will cost to bus EL kids to Toomer for EL's next meeting. There are 2 closure meetings required by law. They aren't legally required to answer questions, but are required to listen to the public.

You're going to base your argument on four tenths of a mile being a significant difference?

It took me 17 seconds longer (measured on my Garmin) to run from ML to Inman than from ML to Coan (not on the same day).

Bingo. Kirkwood's strategy throughout the redistricting has been "stay in Grady at all costs." And many here are in favor of sticking to that strategy, although it should be apparent that Davis has heard and rejected Kirkwood's Grady argument and moved on. That's why you're not hearing arguments to "save Coan for the Jackson cluster" or to "save Coan" for any purpose other than as a vehicle to stay in Grady.

Just so you know, there is at least one person in Kirkwood who is genuinely enthusiastic about joining the Jackson cluster. I don't see any reason why Jackson can't be on a par with or surpass Grady with a few years of hard work and the right committed resources. Grady is not Phillips Exeter Academy. It's not even the highest performing high school in APS. It's just a decent high school in a system with too few decent high schools.

So, I agree with you that we can pull it off. Although the middle school, wherever the facility is located, will IMO be the most challenging part.

He posted the Google .doc, above; how much more attribution can one need?

He didn't say it was, "suggestive of current Kirkwood positions," he said it was in line with past actions of Kirkwood residents, and leaders.

I know your goal - part of it- is to keep Coan open. Looking at the effects keeping it open would have on the rest of the Jackson cluster, it does not make fiscal sense. Keeping it open so as to have a back door at Grady does though.

I think it would have been- look at DeKalb. Issues were almost the same, over- vs. under-capacity, north vs. south, etc. etc. etc. You get the chance go by Druid Hills- they had to add on enough facility to house all the students that transferred by way of NCLB- so they are at Druid Hills, but only on the grounds. At the core, the same problems: lousy district governance, dysfunctional and incompetent board, and a lot of under-performing schools, mainly in the areas that had lost population.

Acer,

Perhaps you didn’t attend the same meeting last night or are just trying to cherry pick things that make you feel good writing about so let me state what was clearly addressed last night.

I was the 8th person to speak and I talked about the fact that 50% of the charter schools that are located in Atlanta are located in the SE Atlanta neighborhoods. These are all schools that have started in the past 12 years. Over 2,400 children attend these schools. Stop and think how many Mary Lin's, Inman’s, or Grady’s that would fill.

continued

Now stop and ask yourself why the charter schools are even there and why 6 have been built in such a small portion of city so quickly. You can't blame this on the parents my friend. The parents just want to provide a good education for their children that APS is not. Thus the charter school opens. Same kids, same parents, same neighborhoods and the only thing that changed was APS and their lack of investment was removed. APS is the very thing that is killing the school. This was all mentioned last night and I can assure you it went in one ear and out the other at APS. They don't want to hear how they failed these communities and caused a need for the charter schools. Instead, Mr Davis tossed the parents under the bus numerous times. The blame has to go somewhere and you know all well that APS isn't going to take it. So in essence the school model that works in SE Atlanta is kick APS to the curb, take over the school, and watch is grow and achieve...via charter school. Remember, same community, same parents, same children. It's like magic.

continued

Our point when we talk about Coan is it doesn't need to be that way. If APS would invest in the SE Atlanta community schools like they do north of us THIS WOULD NOT BE THE PROBLEM. Our schools could thrive and be excellent learning centers. Instead APS's solution for the area is close, consolidate, pretend to invest, and watch the cycle continue. We simply say STOP THAT NOW. Invest, use, and make a reason for people to come back to these schools. In other words, provide an education, build it, they will come.

continued

The disturbing thing about last nights meeting is even if you didn't know the inner details and history of the have's and the have-not's it was VERY clear it exists just by listening to the people speak. All of the people from the SE quadrant expressed concern for once again losing more and trying to wrap their hands around why. Some presented great facts, some gave passionate speeches even. Many, like myself, explained why this has happened and even offered easy solutions. Then you could see the other side. Every time they got up they stroked Davis's ego with one hand, thanked him for giving them everything they wanted, and with the other hand asked for more money to build a school while knowing all well there's a perfect one waiting for them...within walking distance even.

That was disgusting to watch and turned my stomach that they could even sit there with a straight face stroking the ego and begging for money while thousands of people just south of them are being neglected and flat our screwed once again because APS refuses to do what's right and work with these communities and schools and not just close them.

continued

If APS wanted to do the right thing they would rezone Inman Park to Hope and relieve the overcrowding at Mary Lin. Cost to APS $0. Rezone Mary Lin to Coan to relieve the overcrowding at Inamn. Cost to APS $0. Send all of Coan to Jackson and relieve any perceived overcrowding at Grady. Cost to APS $0. So many problems solved. Oh yeah, what about the parents that REFUSE to send their kids to Coan / Jackson? Well, get in line with us and demand a better school or even better take a walk in our shoes for a while and feel what it's like to sit and watch this pandering and lack of investment continue. What’s the matter people, don’t you believe in what Davis is selling us? If you do, come join us and help fix the problem. At the end of the day APS would have solved their problem of overcrowding and saved future expenses.

Let the backlash ensue but at least everything above it 100% true…I was there the whole night and listened to each and every person.

@Acer, the only charter school that draws a significant number of students from the Coan zone is Drew. The charters in Grant Park are in such demand that they have no space for people in Kirkwood or East Lake. I think Drew has less than 200 middle school students and as others have mentioned, those 200 students would not come close to filling Coan.

If you're following the charter movement in Georgia, you'll know that the Ga. S. Ct. issued a decision last year that would give APS (or any public school district) the authority to deny a charter. That decision should result in fewer charters going forward. However, there is legislation that will be on the ballot in November that would once again allow a state commission to approve charters, over the objection of a local school district. If that passes, I would expect to see even more charters, particularly for the middle grades. I love our public elementary school (Toomer) and I have high hopes for Jackson High School, but I have serious reservations about sending my kids to the newly defined King. Even assuming drastic improvement there, you are still talking about 1,000 11-14 year olds in one giant building. I realize that charters can have a negative impact on traditional public schools, but there is a point where idealism meets reality. If Kirkwood kids end up at King and the voters approve the charter measure, I would support another charter middle option for kids leaving Toomer.

Chris,

Think big picture here. With present enrollment it might be 40% full but not with the baby bubble that is headed our way and the ability to improve that school to a point where more people will want to come back to it. It's called a very cheap investment in the future.

From an immediate cost perspective it saves millions in not needing to expand Mary Lin and not needing to expand Inman. Not sure why that part keeps getting lost. That money that could have been spent on building can be invested on ALL the schools and the improvement in ALL the schools since it's no longer needed for building.

Can you not understand the simple logic in this?

You are finally raising the question that interests me most-will GP/OP/East Atlanta/Cabbagetown buy in to King and send their kids there? If so, sign me up. If not, unfortunately I think EL/KWD will have to explore alternative middle school options for our own communities, just as GP/OP has done with the K-8 charters and the middle school charter.

@bearcatn8

There are plenty of people in Kirkwood who don't need your sympathy and aren't asking for your CP/LC/Inman kids. You're just not getting any opportunity to speak with those people because they are less vocal and, when they speak, they've moved on from the Lin discussion to more productive things, like figuring out the most viable middle school option for OUR community.

ESL,

You keep telling yourself that and maybe you will believe it. Anyone with an ounce of smarts can see the right thing to do. Why do you think the Lin parents show up in masses? It's because they know as well and thats why they fight for the status que. Right now it's a tough battle since the land of NOD has APS in their back pocket like it has always had. But shedding light on all that is a very interesting process and one that we will not stop until logic is restored. If that comes 4/10 great, if not it will happen next time. Until then the fight continues for logic and fiscal responsibility instead of pandering to a certain neighborhood, class, or school. So you are free to carry-on with your empty messages as much as you want while we pump facts into the APS office and to those outside the process that can help move it in the right direction. And don't worry, we still love one another as neighbors. Business is business though and we have unfinished business to tend to.

ESL, you show up in mass because you know that Lin - Coan is the best solution for SRT3 and you're scared to death it may actually happen.

You guys may "win" this battle today, even then you've simply delayed the progress that must take place in our region. The Lin to Coan train is coming down the tracks, and it's only a matter of time before it comes to fruition. It's the only solution that makes any sense. It may take 5 or 10 years, but that day will come.

ESL,

You know, its disturbing that you appear to be more of the stalker type. While it is clear that my profession is being an appraiser, I would have told you should you asked. I have nothing to hide. Heck, I even said I don't have kids, I even post with my full name. I don't need to hide behind an alias when sharing factual information. If you wish to have my address or phone number I will even give that to you as well. Don't stalk, it's disturbing. And to be clear, my profession has nothing to do with a logic use of APS funds and a need to invest in communities that have been ignored. Not sure how those items even come together. As a person with a heart I understand the interest in keeping your kids in Inman. On a personal level I would as well. However, we are dealing with an entire school district that is out of balance. The logic and cost effective ways to deal with that are what we keep saying. It just so happens that Mary Lin falls in part of the area that has a problem. I am not sure why this is so hard to understand. But hey, we don't make the decisions here, this is just conversation.

Oh geez. Mash n Greg, here we go again round the mulberry bush (and yes-I am more the monkey than the weasel). Part of the art of the blog is the wit- don"t forget to use it.

Didn't we already have the exchange before about keeping the subject on topic? And while we are at it, since you are stalking, is there anything you would like to know about me that you didn't find with Google? Come out from your hiding place ESL and have a real conversation, it won't hurt, I promise. We are all adults here.

You're playing the racist card? Really? Let me get this straight, someone that chooses to live in a diverse community is racist?

That's embarrassing klb. You should probably create a new Patch alias because you have effectively undermined any credibility you may have had. No one will take you seriously from now on klb.

KLB,

By calling me a racist you really do lose any and all respect for your opinions. You should be ashamed of yourself for even letting those thoughts cross your mind let alone air them on a public board. It's a shame that you hide behind "klb" and not post who you are.

I'm a white person that lives in a predominantly black neighborhood and have for 13 years. I moved here when it wasn't cool to live here because it was affordable and I could see the potential. I fight today to keep our middle school open because it needs bodies in the seats. Sadly we have to look to your school for those bodies because you are overcrowded. Trust me, I would rather have kids from another school than from one with parents like you. We don't need your wealth or skin color, we just need bodies. You are the first person to call me a racist in 13 years though so hats off to you for being pathetic.

Concerned Parent,

In case you missed it, I don't have kids so no, I don't need your white kid for anything except a butt in a seat so we can keep our school open and invest in it for a change. By keeping it open and investing in it we not only invest in a community but we stop APS from wasting money on building and use that money for education. I'm also glad it resonated with you. Perhaps if you would read the facts and data thats out there instead of hiding behind the Marta tracks you would see that what was said was a brutal truth. So as you hide behind "concerned parent" and the Marta tracks, tell us when you moved into the Mary Lin district. I'll hedge my bets that it was in the last 10 years...12 tops. You are enjoying the fruits of the labor of people before you that helped your neighborhood and school become what it is. Look back and you will see that we are today where you were 15 years ago. I am one of the people that is changing my neighborhood not living off other people hard work.

@Greg Wilkinson, I moved to the Mary Lin district 18 years ago. We bought our first house when Inman Park was considered affordable (well under six figures). Lin was not a "desirable" school in '94, and neither was Inman. When my oldest child was born just after 2000, Lin was still under-enrolled and Title I. We seriously thought about moving, parochial, or home schooling. But the Mary Lin mafia was relentless - they sold us wrapping paper, got us to auctions and recruited people who didn't even have kids yet. I do not remember any call to siphon off students from Morningside Elementary, which was going over capacity at the time. Rather, they looked to their immediate neighbors. And that is what has made all the difference.
Mary Lin does not have disproportionate resources from APS. The playground was planned, funded, constructed and maintained by parents. Library books are bought by parents and local businesses, as are science materials.and the list goes on. All APS schools are under funded.
Kirkwood is a good 10 years behind in its upswing. Not very long ago Mary Lin needed bodies in seats, too. We looked to our immediate neighbors.
My point is that you paint with much too broad a brush. Not only do I have those older kids, I also have a 4 year old. And I am not an anomaly in the Lin neighobrhoods.

Peace Probability,

I truly appreciate your write-up and respect your opinion 100%. The communities south of the Marta line are indeed at least 10 years behind yours. We understand this. That is why we have put so much emphasis in Toomer to make it a good school so we can then work on Coan. Our need for bodies is critical to keep that dream alive and in no way is it directed at Lin. It just so happens that Lin is a viable solution to our under-enrollment that we have. This would never have been an issue if Davis didn't go off on a tangent closing our school. I've said before and I will say it again, if Lin were a bad school I would welcome them the same. It's about allowing us to continue the work we have done. Back when Lin had issues charter schools were not an option. Now it is and APS doesn't know how to compete with them. The same children, parents, and community members go to these schools and they are good schools. Instead of APS fixing the public schools here and make them competing schools to stop the charter takeover, APS backs away and the cycle continues. This is why we are yelling so loud to stop the trend, invest in the schools, fill them to reduce overcrowding, take the money saved and direct it to the actual education. None of this is a fight for certain kids and certain class of people, it's a fight to keep the school open and the movement going. That's all. Again, I really appreciate your response.

Greg,
You are correct that the charter school movement has thrown a wrench into SE Atlanta public schools. The question is whether the area will succumb and become a charter cluster, or take back the traditional public school model.
Back when Lin was considered for closure, parents went door to door getting signatures from residents pledging that they would send their kids to Lin, either when they came of age or by pulling out of private. That WAS before my time (I think, because I don't remember anyone coming to my door for that). Armed with pledges, APS allowed Lin to stay open. I'm not sure how much that factored into the decision, but a similar effort for Coan certainly couldn't hurt. Given everything I heard Davis say, THAT would be the kind of thing that might persuade him to recommend keeping Coan open.
You only have a few days, but if you could get pledges from at least 100 parents in your community that either have kids not yet of middle school age or who are currently in charter schools (and those would be the most effective) to attend Coan you will be able to say that you did everything humanly possible. (Signatures, addresses, phone numbers, age of their kids etc. - not a "petition").
My apologies if something similar is already underway.

Peace and Probability,

Thank you once again for open and constructive dialog. We are working on the exact plan that you speak of. We are trying to rally the troops as best we can in such a short amount of time. The Coan closure came as a complete surprise and we had to act quick. Davis is very clear that we need butts in the seats and the community involved. Well, I think by kicking the hornets nest he got that. We are working on a comprehensive plan to make Coan a model middle school for future generations. We just ask for the chance to do what other schools such as Lin has done and our very own Toomer is on its way doing. With the charter schools nipping at our heals it makes the battle that much harder. In no way were we ever trying to take Lin down a path that would hurt it and the children. We do feel that the fiscally responsible thing to do is only build if truly needed. I would much rather see that money invested in the direct education of children across all of APS. I remember when Lin was not the Lin it is today. It's just sad that there has been so much negative venom calling me a racist or my community a failure because I am clawing to keep the school open and make it better. We are going to work hard at making Coan a great school and want people to look forward to coming to it. We just ask for the time if we commit to a plan. Thanks again for being a voice of reason in an unreasonable process.

Lee - Because I wrote the first response to this thread, I am being emailed the replies. To answer your question to another poster, which seems to have been taken down, the Obama children cannot attend public school.

I actually worked on K Street in Washington in the mid-eighties directly across the street from Stevens Elementary, on 22nd Avenue, where Amy Carter tried to go to school. The Carters soon discovered that it was impossible for the Secret Service to give the needed protection to children in the DC public schools. If you saw where the schools are located, you would understand that there are eight story buildings surrounding the schools that would be impossible to secure. DC is more urban, more built up, that Atlanta. People use public transportation and walk, as opposed to ATL, where the majority of us get in cars, even within the city core. Sidwell Friends, the Cathedral School, Gonzaga, etc., are in more secluded locations which can be secured to meet the needs of the President's children.

While I cannot imagine what this has to do with APS redistricting, everyone who remembers the Amy Carter situation understands the First Daughters could not possibly attend a DC public school.

Delete Lee
11:37 am on Saturday, March 24, 2012

@Mr. Krohn, thank you for clarifying. My response was to a person who made the comparison of President Obama (who attended public schools), and Paris Hilton and others (who the person said did not). My comment was to indicate that if it was public schools that made Obama great, then he became great enough to take his children out. Whether that is by choice or circumstance, I do not know. However, I do believe Mr. Obama, as well as ALL politicians, shold be required to take the same medicine they manufacture in policy and rhetoric. My comment was only directed at Mr. Obama because the poster mentioned him. I would substitute ANY politician's name had it been mentioned. Things will change ONLY when politicians have to live by the same rules that we do. I do appreciate you telling me though!

Lee,

I appreciate you being so rude as to call not only our school a failure but our community one as well. Luckily I know that you are wrong and the majority of Lin parents and supporters are not as pathetic as you are. Fringe people like you, ESL, klb, and concerned parent are what makes having a logic and fact based dialog impossible. You all are too busy saying things that erode any credibility that you might have had.

Rest assured I will continue to stand up and talk facts with any of you should you wish to have honest open dialog. It's nice though when you see the hatred, venom, and race comments come out though. It means that the facts are resonating with you and it's good to hear. The madder you get the more we know you understand.

@Greg Wilkinson, my insight into the Coan community comes directly from a friend who has worked there for years. Compared to the true situation, my words have been kind. If YOU had children in school there, you would be a witness to the devastation imposed on children created by a lack of personal responsibility in their surrounding community. If YOU had any children, you would understand how damaging this is. Yes, I am mad because the academic and social standards of our community (and the entire country) is in rapid decline, while you and others like you perpetuate the problem by supporting policies (and redistricting proposals) that reinforce low standards, zero responsibility and utter failure - and expect me and others to keep quiet and continue to pay. If you think I am in the minority, think again - I just happen to tell you about it. Many of my other friends are busy making plans to get their kids into private schools.

I see it could be complicated, but we did put a man on the moon, right? Seriously though, my overall point is that our public school system - or ANY system, for that matter - will never improve until politicians are compelled to participate in the very same sytems they engineer for us, and that we are required to pay for and live with.